What about our Constitution, life, liberty, peace and prosperity?:
Register to vote Richard Charles Silver Senator 2012 Republican:
http://nvsos.gov/index.aspx?page=703
We note that Pakistan has nukes:
1 March 2012:
Sana Saleem: People are fed up with drone attacks and blame US policy for Afghan war
Ever since my Pakistani Polo Player Industrialist family Stanford teaching assistant who looked like Bridge Player Lawrence of Arabia Actor Omar Sharif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Sharif), I have been interested in MENA.
This interview plainly shows people around the world have a lot in common with distrust in and need for reform of their governments.
Pat Tilden may have been murdered because he wanted to blow the whistle on foolish foreign policy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman
Bio
Sana Saleem is CEO of human rights organization Bolo Bhi, which means "Speak Up." The organization focuses on policy, advocacy and research. She's an activist and blogger at The Guardian, Global Voices and Dawn.com.Transcript
PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR, TRNN: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Washington.
When
President Obama was elected, his new strategy for the Afghan War was
based on the idea of better relations with Pakistan and having Pakistan
more collaborative in dealing with the Afghan Taliban.
This included
what was supposed to be a civilian surge in Afghanistan, but also, in
Pakistan in the areas that border Afghanistan, money for people's
well-being.
There was all supposed to be support for NGOs and civil
society in Pakistan, less unconditional support for the Pakistani
military.
And all of this was supposed to lead to a Pakistan that would
be more—one could say, more backbone or stronger in being opposed to
extreme Islamist forces, and more democratic.
This was supposedly the
strategy.
Well, as everyone who follows the stories knows, not much of
that has happened, and Pakistan-American relations are probably at a
worse point than they were four years ago.
Now joining us to talk about all of this is Sana Saleem. Sana is CEO of Bolo Bhi, which means speak up. It's a human rights organization focusing on policy, advocacy, and research.
And Sana also blogs at The Guardian, Global Voices, and Dawn.com. Thanks for joining us, Sana.SANA SALEEM, WRITER AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
JAY:
So what is the state of things in terms of Pakistani public opinion now
and the feelings towards the United States and the whole relationship
with U.S. and the Pakistan military?
SALEEM: The public's
opinion now on America is no different than it was when the war on
terror started.
We have to understand what the situation was in Pakistan
when the war on terror initially began.
Pakistan was under dictatorship
of General Musharraf.
There was no public consensus on a position on
Afghanistan, and there couldn't have been, because it was not
democratic.
Parliament wasn't taken into confidence.
And so from the
very beginning we've had this sort mistrust of the United States, sort
of the fact that—even with dictator Musharraf later revealing that the
United States had in fact threatened him to get into this war, that also
added up to people's hatred towards America.
And the past ten years in
the war on terror, even though our politicians, our leaders, our army,
or the intelligence agencies have been collaborating with the United
States of America, they have kept on using the anti-American rhetoric
for their political card, for sympathy, to sort of rid themselves of
responsibility of the drone strikes or for—to make the religious parties
happy.
So it's not something that recent, it's not something that has
happened [incompr.] thing or after the Osama bin Laden raid or nothing.
It's something that has been there since the beginning of war on terror,
in fact.
And the fact that after the war on terror began and the way
that we were pulled into it, that, as well as how the international
community sort of reacted to it—.Pakistanis have always
felt isolated for what they know.
Firstly, people don't have a very
clear perception of history in Pakistan.
Because of the
[incompr.] dictatorship, our history books do not build a holistic
picture.
So what little we do know, and which is in fact true, is that
America used Pakistan again during a dictatorship—one of the worst,
Zia-ul-Haq's time—as an ally to break down the Soviet Union.
And this is
something that has caused repercussion for Pakistan.
So even for
[incompr.] Taliban, Pakistanis, a majority, blame America for it.
And
now for the past ten years they feel that for something that the U.S.
was also equally responsible—or let me say more responsible, since the
war was in our neighborhood and not theirs—that we are constantly being
told to do more, to do more.
And the past ten years, ever since the
suicide bombings started and ever since the religious political parties
have used this war on terror as sort of—let me just say, sort of a
justification to say that these suicide bombers are actually doing this
or they're actually killing soldiers or civilians because they don't
want us to be allies with America, so this isn't our war, this is
America's war, this is something that you would [crosstalk]
JAY: So the point here is that this kind of U.S. policy strengthens the extreme religious parties.
SALEEM:
Yeah, U.S. policy strengthens this, yes.
But secondly, it's also the
Pakistani politicians and Pakistani army never being truly honest to
their people.
There is no transparency.
We don't know the level of
collaboration between the two governments.
And whenever the opportunity
has come, they've come up and they've said things that could fuel
anti-American sentiment, without really considering the aftermath
[crosstalk]
JAY: So President Obama had promised this sort
of new relationship that was going to be based on more attention to
Pakistani civilians.
I think he even gave some special assignment to
Vice President Biden to try to pursue this.
But how much of that has
happened, support for civil society and, you can say, human development,
rather than just military support?
SALEEM: So USAID has
pooled in a lot of money in Pakistan, like, a lot of money.
And I would
just say, as a personal opinion, I sometimes feel really sorry for the
American taxpayer, because a lot of money has been pooled in.
They've
been—they've pledged schools in Swat. So I wouldn't say they haven't
done it. They have pooled in a lot of money.
But at the same time, drone
strikes have doubled, tripled, and so have the terrorist strikes.
So a
lot of Pakistani people don't see USAID money.
In fact, a lot of times
when the U.S. Embassy or the USAID does something, majority of these
human rights organizations do not want to reveal that they are in fact
being supported by the USAID, because they'll be declared U.S. agents,
and because people feel disrespected that on one side, you're killing
our people, and on the other side, you think that giving aid would—and
doing pretty things like cultural events would sort of stop us from
asking for justice.
That's how a lot of people feel about these things.
So you would see a lot of organizations that are supported by USAID not
using the logo, not disclosing that they're being supported by them at
all.
JAY: Right. Now, so the drone strikes are so widely
condemned in Pakistan that the other—whatever there is happening on the
aid side isn't so significant.
But the counterargument you'll hear—from
the American officials, at least—is that the Pakistani authorities
simply don't really go after the Afghan Taliban.
And, in fact, I think
it's fairly well accepted, the Afghan Taliban, as differentiated from
the Pakistani Taliban, were more of—the Afghan Taliban were more or less
nurtured, brought into being by the Pakistani ISI, and it's all—people,
at least observers, have always thought of the Afghan Taliban as being a
lever of power of Pakistanis' military in Afghanistan.
And so the
Americans are saying, well, you don't go after them; so if you don't and
we can't send American troops into Pakistan, how else do you go after
the Taliban and al-Qaeda leadership? How do people respond to that
argument?
SALEEM: People don't respond to that at all.
People don't want to respond to that at all, because this is war tactic,
this is warfare, and people feel invisible.
Like, for the past ten
years, people have felt invisible because of the war on terror,
primarily because it's—our foreign policy and war on terror have
overshadowed everything else, everything positive as well as everything
negative.
It's sort of—it's always about—whenever it's about Pakistan,
it's always about terrorism.
And a lot of people don't want to
understand the fact that they actually don't care if the Americans want
to go after—the Afghans and the Pakistanis are not cooperating, because a
lot of them, and especially people on the street—if you ask them, you
hear contrasting opinions.
If you want to talk [to them about] the war
on terror, they would say, we don't have electricity at home, we—there's
a lot of corruption, we don't trust our government, we don't have
employment, we're not happy with the state of affairs, and on top of
that, when we get out of our house, we don't feel safe anymore.
So we've
had enough of this.
We think that it's not working.
So a majority of
the people think that it's not working.
And I don't think we can expect
people to sort of care for warfare and to care that it's a war tactic
and this is what's going to happen, because, again, I like to imply that
they don't understand—they don't understand this war.
And
it's been more complicated because the Pakistani government or the
Pakistani intelligence agencies and the military has not been
transparent at all.
What you're telling me is what the United States
government has been saying to its people.
It's been very clear and very
transparent with its people, saying that, look, we need to do drone
strikes because of this, this, this; this is a valid threat.
Well,
that's not what the Pakistani government has been saying.
Every time
there's a drone strike, every time there is a protest, our prime
minister or our president or the military spokesperson or [incompr.]
spokesperson have said only one thing: we do not legitimize this; we
don't have anything to do with it; we don't provide any intelligence for
this; America is constantly interfering in our sovereignty, and we're
not going to put up with it.
And then they do nothing about it.
So what
it does, it pushes people into a vicious cycle of helplessness and
anti-Americanism.
And you don't—you cannot expect them to discard what
their military chief is saying and their prime minister or the
president's saying, and then the religious parties, and sort of go ahead
and say, oh, no, we understand why the Americans are doing this.
JAY:
Right. Now, when you look at the numbers, far, far more innocent people
have been killed in these drone strikes than al-Qaeda or Taliban
leaders.
And for Americans, they shrug their shoulders and say, well,
that's collateral damage, that's war.
But I guess that's what the
Pakistani people don't accept, that you can have so many innocent people
killed in these strikes. Is that what the issue is?
SALEEM:
That—of course that is an issue as well.
But, unfortunately, there
hasn't been—like, extra judicial killings, unfortunately, hasn't been
covered as much in the mainstream media as it is.
More anger seems to be
why is America interfering in our sovereignty.
Like, it's—nobody has
asked if the same has happened in Swat, because our army [incompr.]
definitely there will be innocent life lost during war, so definitely
[incompr.] in Swat.
So majority of even the coverage in Pakistan hasn't
been that this many innocent civilians have been killed. It's always
like, oh, suspected terrorists or suspected militants have been killed,
when it should be about extrajudicial killings.
Yes, religious parties,
though, have said that, you know, these are innocent people and this
shouldn't happen, but primarily (I'll just be honest with you) it's
about why is America doing this, America shouldn't be interfering and
killing these people and [crosstalk]
JAY: So what do you think U.S. policy should be towards Pakistan?
SALEEM:
Before pointing anything about U.S. policy, I would say that whatever
the U.S. policy between Pakistan and—you know, whatever the policy
between Pakistan and United States is, it needs to be very, very
transparent.
It needs to be—on paper it needs to be told to the people,
because what we see now and what a majority feels is that we're
[incompr.] for dictations of America, that they don't really trust us,
that our soldiers are not fully—like, they're not fully sold out—I hate
to use that word, but it's not fully sold out to this war.
So
do we have a strategy? We have no strategy.
What America, I think,
needs to do is push Pakistan, if they can, to build their own counter—.
We still—ten years, and we still do not have a counterterrorism
strategy.
So if you ask any defense analyst, if you were a third party
observing it, anybody would conclude that it is a puppet war, because if
a country that has its soldiers on the front of the line, those are
dying, actively engaging with those militants on the ground, is fighting
without a strategy, how [incompr.] that happening?
And they also need
to—it's like two selfish people together in one alliance.
[incompr.]
America, and it seems like, okay, we're going to [conduct] drone strikes
and wipe out all those Afghan Taliban because these are a real problem.
And then there's Pakistan that says, we're going to go on ground and
kill the Pakistani Taliban that are against the army because that's our
problem.
And both these wars seem to be completely distant and different
from each other. They don't seem [crosstalk]
JAY: Okay.
Just to be clear for people who don't get the distinction, what we're
calling the Pakistani Taliban have as their main enemy the Pakistani
state, and the Afghan Taliban have as their main objective taking power
in Afghanistan.
And you're saying there's two separate wars going on
here.
SALEEM: It seems to the common people that there are
two separate wars going on here.
Even if you were to check, even if you
were to sort of read into it, like you said, the drone strikes sort of
work in favor of America, because American government believes that the
Pakistani soldiers or the Pakistani army, despite going on the ground,
is not really going after the Afghan Taliban.
And at the same time, it's
the Pakistani government or the Pakistani military that says, these are
the people who are a real threat, and we need to deal with them, so
we're dealing with them on the ground.
So what I—before suggesting
anything to the United States of America, I don't know if I'm in a
position to suggest something to them when my own government is not
being wholly truthful to us.
There's one thing. We need to
be completely and totally transparent with our level of alliance with
America.
The military or the government needs to accept if it is in fact
[incompr.] had legitimized these drone strikes, because if you ask a
military spokesperson off the record, they would say that they find
drone strikes pretty effective; they would say that these areas are not
under their control and these areas are not areas where they can send
their army, and it wouldn't be beneficial for them, it would cause much
more life loss for the army to go on the ground and do that.
But they
don't say that in public.
So if we were to forge an
alliance, and if you're supposed to get to an end goal in this war
without inflaming a lot of sentiment in Pakistan or without getting—you
know, without worsening the situation and we need to put an end to it,
we have to take people into confidence.
And the Pakistani government
essentially needs to stop treating its people like they're ignorant or
they won't understand the complications involved in this war.
JAY:
And would you say majority public opinion in Pakistan would like the
U.S. just to get out of Afghanistan and out of this region in terms of
directing things?
Or is opinion more divided?
SALEEM:
Definitely the opinion is divided.
But the majority's opinion seems to
be that America needs to go and the Pakistan military needs to do its
own—they need to fight their own war, and America needs to move out now.
And I think a lot of Americans feel similar.
JAY: Thanks very much for joining us, Sana. Thank you for joining us on The Real News Network.
End
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